Today I received the following in an email from David Cloud:
We have recently discovered that listings from our Church Directory were placed verbatim on the Baptist Friends International list as churches that have “registered” to support their program. This is a very deceptive practice that should cast doubt on the methods employed by this group.
An announcement of the IB Friends International church directory was during their recent conference. Pastor Bobby Mitchell of Brunswick, Maine, said that during one of the broadcasts that he heard “it was stated that ‘thousands’ had ‘registered’ their churches and ministries at the IBFI website.”
When he examined the website he found that his church was listed without his knowledge, and that no one in the church had “registered” it with the IB Friends. He said,
“I also noticed several other churches that were ‘registered’ that had not been ‘registered’ by anyone associated with those churches. The more I read the stranger it became as I looked at listings of churches that no longer exist, the names of pastors who are now in heaven, and the names of pastors who have moved to a different church.”
Pastor Mitchell says that when he spoke with a staff member at Crown College about having their church removed from the directory “he apologetically stated that, in fact, they had built the majority of the directory from other existing church directories that were created and owned by other groups.”
This is duplicity, and a loud public apology should be made in regard to the directory.
I emailed Bro. Cloud the following:
Bro. Cloud,
I’m mystified by this email, because the following statement is on the church directory page. http://baptistfriends.org/united-states/all/
“This directory is designed to serve only as a listing of Independent Baptist churches and ministry resources. It is not an endorsement of any particular ministry, nor is it a fellowship or organization to which any local church belongs.”
This statement leads me to believe that they’re specifically creating a directory of independent Baptist churches, not a list of churches in the IBFriends.
Please help me understand what’s going on, as these statements conflict.
After sending the email, I noticed this on the “about us” page:
Q: Is this a new fellowship?
A: No, this is not a new fellowship. The term fellowship should be a verb and not a noun, meaning fellowship is what we do, not what we are. This meeting is designed to acquaint Independent Baptist people with the vast work of Independent Baptist churches world-wide. It is a meeting of friends and is intended to encourage world evangelism through local churches.
Q: Is this something churches join?
A: No, local churches should not join anything. The loyalty of the local church must always remain solely to the Lord Jesus Christ. He and He alone is the only head of the local assembly. This meeting provides a time for Independent Baptist people to get better acquainted and increase their burden and enlarge their vision for world evangelism. Specific needs from around the world are brought to the attention of everyone attending.
Q: Why are churches listed?
A: Churches are listed world-wide to provide inquiring people with the specific information about local Independent Baptist churches in their part of the world and to determine where other churches need to be started.
Q: What is known about churches and ministries listed in this directory?
A: The only thing that is known is the fact they exist. Whether or not one would choose to be a part of this church or use one of these ministries is entirely up to the individual. This directory is not a endorsement of churches and ministries listed.
In the end, the issue with the registration of churches on the IB Friends site is an issue of ambiguity that does need to be clarified. It is obvious to the one who looks that there was a directory made. It is also obvious that there is a registration process by which others can be added to the directory. It is not explicitly stated that those on the directory from the beginning did not register, but it is obvious. There is no deception or duplicity here. IB Friends simply needs to clarify the nature of the directory and registration process.
I think it is time for folks to stop digging at the specks of dust they see and work on getting the planks out of their eyes. It is the attitude of folks such as Cloud that gives Fundamentalism a bad name, and it is he who should issue the apology to Clarence Sexton and the IB Friends web administrators.
Stay tuned. I shall update this up receipt of a response from Bro. Cloud.
Update:
Here is David Cloud’s reply:
Hi. Did you read the article? I explained.
David Cloud
R Jacob
April 29, 2010
Dear JasonS,
I’m curious as to why, in your list of Q’s and A’s copied from “About Baptist Friends” on the BaptistFriends.org webiste, you skipped over the following:
Q: Why register with Independent Baptist Friends International?
A: Independent Baptist pastors, evangelists, missionaries, Christian school teachers and many others from Independent Baptist Churches may add their names to a directory of Independent Baptist Friends International. There is a charge to register so that the cost of providing a directory of friends can be covered. The website directory requires constant updating which is a considerable task.
The fact that IBFI imposes “a charge to register” a church on their website listing changes up the dynamic here quite a bit. Did those currently registered pay a fee? If not, will they be invoiced? And why should a church pay a fee to be registered among friends? Paying for representation on this website makes it a lot more serious an association than simply being listed along with other available Baptist churches.
I don’t know the ins and outs of this issue. But, as God’s people, we are entitled, indeed instructed, to try the spirits…to excercise judgment and discernment. And to do that, we need ALL the facts, not just ones that are put together piecemeal to support one’s perspective. Labeling an organization, in part and however “unofficially,” with the term “friends,” automatically raises concerns for students of church history. Friendship itself is not wrong or evil; but it is too often a medium through which compromise is effected in Christian circles. I select my personal friends carefully and am not quick to apply that label to every acquaintance. I don’t think it’s beyond the bounds of common sense and Christian prudence to have a similar approach to selecting those churches with whom we choose to associate. You have to check them out first. 2 Corinthians 6 is still in effect after all these years!
I live in eastern Massachusetts and have personally visited a signficant number of the MA/NH churches that are now listed on the Baptist Friends website. Information provided on their specific individual websites (which can be accessed through links provided on BaptistFriends.org), coupled with my impression formed carefully while visiting them, make it clear to me that some of them represent Laodicean-type churches. Agreeing actively, or passively, to be “friends” with such churches will not further the gospel of Christ. If so, I need to cut out significant parts of my Bible (e.g., 2 Thess 3:14).
Again, I respectfully submit my opinion that it’s important for us to be careful and discerning about the nature of our religious associations. We know we are to be separate from the world. But are we to be separate from those churches that have allowed various amounts of the world to creep in to their midst? I’m not saying, pharisetically, that there are some who don’t do battle with the world as it encroaches on the church. We all do! But recognizing wordliness in ourselves and in our churches, and endeavoring to effect its remediation through the cleansing power of the Word, is far, far different than uniting with churches that are worldly and think that it’s okay! For me, that’s where I draw the line.
In Christ,
R Jacob
JasonS
April 30, 2010
R. Jacob,
Thanks for the response. I appreciate your willingness to discuss the matter with me.
The reason that I left that out is because I didn’t think it relevant to the discussion.
As the matter stands it appears that a directory of churches was made, and that there is now a charge to be added to the directory. I don’t think that one question changes the issue at all. The real issue is ambiguity and not deception. That was my point.
I agree with you that we should be careful in our associations. We should be careful with our fellowship. I certainly cannot deny that. My point was simply that it seems to be much ado about nothing in one sense, because it truly doesn’t seem as if the website intended for folks to think that all of the churches were “friends”. In fact, it seems as though they did make that part clear by stating that they did not endorse all of the churches listed, but listed them as a help for those seeking a church.
Again, thanks for your comments. I do trust that we shall all stand for Biblical truth and separate when we must. In fact, I encourage you to click around the blog here a little bit and comment on our posts regarding separation. I’d like to hear from you on that topic.
JasonS
Damien T Garofalo
April 29, 2010
As someone who has corresponded with Cloud at least twice, and done my very best to walk on eggshells and be very kind, I would tell you to expect a harsh response for calling this self-appointed watchman into question. I hope I’m wrong for your sake, Jason.
JasonS
April 30, 2010
Damien,
I expect that you are correct.
Phil
May 1, 2010
A preacher who was candidating for our church said on his application that he reads Clouds books. He also said “Sometimes he involves himself in too much of a harsh way…” I later found out that he and Cloud are friends and that bolt Cloud and Brian Snider separately recommended that he canadate for our church.
Phil
May 1, 2010
Is there a way to change my commenter box so its not pink?
JasonS
May 1, 2010
LOL
Aren’t you a pink preacher?
I think you have to change your profile for it to be different.
Phil
May 2, 2010
I not a preacher. Sorry if my comment was not clear on that , The jist of my comment was to says even this guy who says he’s Clouds friend thinks he is too harsh sometimes. I kind of agreed with what I quoted, but I kind of had a problem with what the guy said. Does your friend know your saying this about him to a pulpit commiteee and something that will be read by a church?This was a guy Cloud quotes or uses stuff he said pretty often.
JasonS
May 2, 2010
I wonder if his (Cloud’s) friends have commented to him about his need for balance? He truly seems to be a nice guy when I interacted with him in the past. Of course, then I agreed with him…..that often changes things with folks.
Bryan Ries
December 20, 2010
As a pastor, I would not want my church associated with a group that I feel would be detrimental to our testimony.
But, as a church, if you get another way for folks to learn about your church it could be a positive thing.
I don’t know much about the Independent Baptist Friends, but to me it sounds like a way for someone to generate a little extra income while providing the internet with a listing of good churches to consider or missionaries to contact.
Barry Watson
June 26, 2011
I have tried to be gracious when asking David Cloud a simple, honest question regarding ministry, the Bible, etc. His replies have been harsh, rude, and short. He seems to think everyone in the world has read everything he’s written. He has webpages with nothing but quotes from people praising him, lists of pastors who support him, etc. If you merely disagree with him on virtually any subject, according to him you are unbalanced mentally. I have e-mails from him to prove it. He has called Dr. Shelton Smith and the Sword of the Lord, a fine independent fundamentalist Baptist publication that has uplifted Jesus Christ since 1930 and is King James supportive, missionary and soul-winning by nature “heretical.” Come even close to criticizing Mr. Cloud and prepare to have the wrath of Cloud unleashed upon you! He recently accused me of being mentally ill just because I told him he should apologize (as he frequently demands others do toward him) to Dr. Smith for false accusations he made about him and the Sword. These are provable, by the way, in print. The most arrogant, ungracious, hateful man in the independent Baptist world, in my opinion.
Steven James
January 4, 2012
Barry, I agree with everything you said. I have had several correspondances with Mr. Cloud over the years, the most recent being yesterday. I questioned his motives for sending out a particular article and received back a hateful and down right wrathful email. I apologized for misjudging him and asked him to please forgive me, and he responded with even more name calling and accusations against me… and called me “the enemy”. I sent a 3rd email again apologizing as humbly and sincerely as I could, asking for forgiveness. Cloud’s response? He emailed with even more name calling, and then proceeded to write out how my apology should have been worded if I expect forgiveness from him. Truly the most remarkable and amazingly arrogant thing I’ve ever seen a man do. I ended the conversation at that point, and blocked him from emailing me.
I am confident that at one point he was sincerely focussed on the Lord. I think that now his cause is NOT the cause of Christ… but the cause of the IFB movement. I believe that the IFB movement is Mr. Cloud’s idol.
And it’s a shame.
I would never ever allow such a mean-spirited and divisive man as David Cloud anywhere near my wife and children.
Everything I have stated is in my inbox written from David Cloud should anyone doubt what I am saying. I state these things “publicly” because what Could does he does in public… isnt that how he does it?
Jay Morris
February 22, 2012
I’m almost positive that there is no charge to put a name up on the website. In fact, i posted a camp ministry on it and didn’t pay a dime. The website could use some clarification, but the charge is a ten dollar charge that you pay if YOU CHOOSE to register while at the conference. This ten dollar registration fee gets you a book on evangelism and a coin commemorating the conference. Both of which are available at the schools book store and cost over ten dollars. I think bashing this meeting has turned into a silly hobby horse for preachers to ride. IBFI is a just a big target, and many preachers foolishly try to hit it. If you have a problem with it deal with it privately, or better yet, call the ministry and ask to talk to someone to clarify your position before you go viral with your “I think”s or “I believe”s